Permanence in Permaculture

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by bazman, Jan 27, 2006.

  1. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    Well......these posts will take a few reads to digest.....and yes I was having some issues with the greater PC application...

    Will know more when I finish Bill Mollison's Permaculture Design Manual...1988 edition but was only $4 at a 2nd hand book sale...

    Cathy :)
     
  2. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    All good posts, I suppose I should finish mine.

    I always saw permaculture as food security and it does that in a fabulous, fun and safe way. I also saw it as a way of minimising impact and living close to nature.

    I didnt see it as being able to provide financial security, not in a cash based world. There are other things that you can do that will provide financial security but Permaculture will lessen your dependence on this world to a huge extent.

    I went thru a huge flood in 98, we lived out of our garden & cupboard for 4 weeks, bartered a bit for cigarettes [i know, i know] and we not dependent on the food handouts. Fact is we attended on the last day for fresh meat. We had no power [from memory] for 4 weeks, a friend lent me his generator, after 2 weeks, which I ran for 2 hours a day on fuel syphoned out of a little store I kept and the family car. One small shop survived.. I remember buying a newspaper, batteries & tobacco and a treat for the kids. I dont think they had any food left. A staff member called out one day with 3 boxes of candles and some meat.

    We still hadnt emptied our pantry or started eating the pets/poultry. There were 5 of us with a stand-up fridge and freezer. After week 2 I opened up the freezer which was still frozen and we had a community barbecue. Some funny things finished up on the barbecue that evening. We fed 21 people.

    Some things we ran out of... yeast, olive oil, sugar and shampoo...none of these really mattered as we had subsitutes. Anyway I am waffling but I know of 2 other permie families that, for want of a better word, sailed through the flood and its aftermath.

    Agricultural history is littered with a litany of 'grand schemes' that failed, it didnt stop people farming. Same with Permaculture. Show me a failed grand scheme and I will find a dozen permie examples that are doing just fine.

    My point is permaculture is very pragmatic, make of it what you will. Take from it what you can and share your success around.

    Cheers
     
  3. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    I don't know about the rest of you, but I find there is an AWFUL LOT to learn about permaculture, if you want to do it close to right. Sort of an educational form of complicated basketweaving.

    But I also suspect that the people who are adopting PC are also trying to do too many projects, and spreading themselves too thin to do a really good job on any of it. And this may especially apply to those who want to jump right in and have enough to sell at market, etc, and make a profit. I don't see a thing wrong with having a market garden, but it's going to take time. Everything does. And if you're dealing with poor soil (from whatever cause), it's going to take time to build it up --- if you're trying to mine it and build it up at the same time, it will be slow going.

    I know someone said that Tagari couldn't produce enough food to fill the back of a ute, but is that actually true, or is that just someone shooting off their mouth (so to speak)? I really can't see it being true, to tell the truth.

    Also, the non-believers, the nay-sayers, and all the other folks who insist that PC won't work, can't be kept up or won't work on a larger basis, all have their own axes to grind. If they keep saying it doesn't work, can't work, will never work, and that message keeps being passed along as gospel among the people who are getting into PC, you know what is going to happen.

    But it isn't as if Mollison & Holmgren actually INVENTED the PC practices -- they just put things together that have worked for thousands of years. Just because a few people can't get the concept going in their head properly, then can't seem to get the concept going on their property, doesn't mean it doesn't work. Doing one major thing wrong can destroy the concept of PC as easily as any other business. If you have a sawmill and install the cutting blades wrong & refuse to change it, are you going to have an active sawmill or a useless sawmill? I'll give you 3 guesses and the first two don't count!

    Sue
     
  4. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Goodness, I feel a little bit bad for propagating that redkneck (term used most repectfully) farmers comments about Bill not growing enough food to fill the back of a ute.
    I know for sure, that one yam plant (dioscorea elata) from Bill's food forest yielded enough tuberage to fill the back of the ute and then some... I know cause I ate a lot of it!
    But the farmers point was that that farm was never a commercial success in terms of growing food for the market...
     
  5. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Oh, so it was YOU! :oops:

    "But the farmers point was that that farm was never a commercial success in terms of growing food for the market..."

    So.... was it supposed to be?

    I got the impression from his books that it was more of an experimental composite of methods, a learning center. And it was supposed to make him rich, TOO??? :twisted:

    Hmmmm..... I guess I got it all wrong! :shock:

    Sue
     
  6. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Well, no I don't think it was intended to make him or anyone rich, at least not financially, though perhaps in terms of a rich lifestyle and a right livelihood. Do you know of any rich farmers? Plenty of rich bankers, rich tractor dealers, rich seed and fertiliser and chemical dealers, but not too many rich farmers... But iTagari Farm, Subtropical Research Farm was for sure intended to be financial viable, and prove the thesis that you can grow food sustainably and profitably at the same time.
    There are some interesting articles by Bill in the PIL journal from back in the day when the farm was getting established. At the time his idea that various livelihoods would be leased out to various individuals who would together comprise the small working group that would effectively manage the farm. For instance, and I am paraphrasing here, one guy would be growing mango's, olives and pomegranates, another guy would handle the poultry and the rabbits, another guy would take care of the aquaculture, some sheila the bamboo forestry, some other bloke the publishing house etc.
    Weird thing though, was that he wasn't designing for their whole lifestyles - by developing zone 1 hamlets and villages or anything; he was suggesting that they rent or own accomodations in town and commute to the farm to work. I remain perplexed as to why he thought that would work...
     
  7. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    That is kind of odd, isn't it? It seems peculiar that he would try to intermesh all the facets of permaculture together so they would work properly, and then piecemeal the lives of the people expected to do it. Hmmmm...... Maybe he is more familiar with animals and plants than people. That's kind of like trying to jump a canyon in two big hops.

    Sue
     
  8. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    All this second guessing is no good Its a Shame Bill cant/wont answer in here
    Now dont get me wrong I have upmost respect for Bill But i cant accept these versions without his words too.....

    Its like rumours I dont take em seriously anymore......as we all know rumours are just that.........

    Tezza
     
  9. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Fair enough Tezza, I can respect that. If you can find some old copies of the Permaculture International Journal, maybe you will find the articl Bill wrote that I refer to. It was one of the earlier ones, before they went to the colour, glossy covers... He says something like, "to house people on this land would create a blot on the landscape".
    The hardest thing about Permaculture design is that it is for people...
     
  10. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    GO RICKY GO RICKY...

    How are ya mate long time no chat lolol



    Sounds great Thought from Old Billy Boy How true that phrase can be...



    Ever been somewhere and thought about that phrase?....I did it on my trip around ..well allmost 1/2 way round 8) 8) Oz buetifull landscape with nothing for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and ooops er hum, then see a house/building, a Motor vehicle,a Person, and think "gee thats a blot on the landscape"

    Sorry, But i could agree with Billy Boy on that one. Humans are/can be a blot on the planet...............

    Bill Is, well, Bill is something special,he was meant to be Bill,a Living Legend, He knows what hes saying,thats why the system hates him,He Definatly sees the """"" BIGGER Picture""""""

    When we all become Bills, we,ll all understand better.....
    We can all find fault in Someone, even ourselves, if we try hard enough :shock:

    We shouldnt blame if we dont understand a person..... :lol: :lol: :lol:


    Tezza
     
  11. macree

    macree Junior Member

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    Tezza, I think what Bill and David have achieved is fantastic and an amazing, important achievement. To be the initiators of what has become a world movement in such a short time (and one that offers so many positives in so many ways) is something special, I agree. But I don't think putting anyone on a pedestal is a good thing - ever. In reference to a community/ideological leader, it has too much potentional to lead to dogmatism to my way of thinking.

    IMO unless you question what has gone before, you can't adapt and improve on it and no matter how insightful Bill and David are, no one is infallible and collective (systemic) learning is always superior to the efforts of any individual. I love diversity of thought - and picking out what fits for me.

    Cheers

    Ree
     
  12. JaK

    JaK Junior Member

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  13. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    EmG, what a fabulous holier than thou attitude you are reeking today! I dig it!
    Look, sure, airplanes suck, but so do cars. Have you managed to completely eschew the modern industrial etertainment complex? You aren't personally responsible for just a little bit of pollution. Those guys and gals out there jetsetting around exposing themselves to malaria and so on are such selfish bastards aren't they?
    Anyone can justify any kind of expedience/pragmatism, given noble enough ends, and urgency of impetus. The jetsetting "Permaculture Activist" could well argue that by consuming such gross amounts of fossils fuels and creating such huge amounts of greenhouse gas, they are able to teach a wide audience how to avoid doing just the same in order to grow food, provide shelter etc...
    Permaculture is of course more than a cute gardening method, it is a system for designing sustainable human settlement.
    Yes, it will probably require some financially successful farms to "convert the mainstream", but I believe that part of this process will involve the mainstream coming to a more realistic accounting of financial success. For example, when we take soil health into account, Permaculture farms will be among the only farms to break even, let alone be profitable.
     
  14. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    EmG,

    I see what you are saying, but the world is not black and white, it is many ues and shades, and compromise is a a reality. So, if you want to get a PC message off to a country that could use that message, and you need to g overseas, so the horse and buggy will stay at home, and there are no wooden sail boats going there, and the tramp steamer will take too long, and you don't want to try an ocean going kayak, you take a plane.

    Now, I agree that the eclogical foot print of air travel is very high, but the net benefit to the planet of sending someone with the skill set and tool belt of knowledge many PC people have can be significantly more than the cost of sending them.

    Not sure ehere that is coming from. We just had a course here in Belize and in discussion about that sort of thing, it didn't come up, so not sure that is an issue.

    Again, if they are trained in what I consider knucklehead accounting, then their opinion of "how profitable they are" is nt worth a whole lot. One of the things about permaculture is that it opens our eyes to larger pictures, like natural cycles, energy flows, nutrient cycling, and true cost accounting. If the person researcdhing the farms isn't up to speed on that modality of looking at the situation, like, for example, this horrid women, Jennifer Somethingorother, who thinks that organic is an indulgence (and, BTW, sher is a paid agrochemical mouth piece), she isn't going to understand the value, in part because she is so stupid, and paiud to be stupid, but, also, because her value system is disconnected from the planet. So they would need to have a degree of understanding of true cost moedls to even begin to approach the subject objectively.

    I live and work in the developing world, and I use the tools I learned through permaculture in my work. Is it making a difference? Yes, and no. If the target community is already interested in some of the concept, or has a background that values the principles of permaculture because it fits in with their worldview, then it will make a difference, either by placing what they are doing and trying to do in a context where it is valued, or by giving the tools to see relations between components and energy flows, nutrrient cycling, etc, which enable them to improve their agricultural practices. To try to teach someone who is commited to stupid agriculture, who thinks that farming can't be done without chemicals, is very hard. Those people are very hard to reach, however, by showing working examples of agriculture that DOES work, they can be reached.

    Examples like the diesl from algae are important, and so are things like Dr Joels wonderful aquaponics system :wav: (available NOW at https://www.backyardaquaponics.com !)

    As far as the degree, well, I am glad that there is some requirement for certification, or any yahoo or bozo could hang up his shingle and proclaim him or herself a "Permaculture Consultant". I am also glad that there are teachers who are good at teaching and have made teaching permaculture their life. The skills and mind set, the tool boxes, if you will, that they disperse, are becoming more and more valuable.

    Perhaps PC is becoming more insular, but some form of standardized requirements for PC teaching would be a good way to go, in my opinion. And, I fully agree that examples of profitable permaculture farms are critical to the propagation of this knowledge, but "profitable" is defined depending on POV, and most people do not have the understanding of why a farm that doesn't require any inputs, that gives more calories out than requirtes calories in is profitable, because their concept of profitability is limited to wether or not there is a large cash flow attached to the produce leaving the farm. In terms of something like calorie based accounting, PC farms (like ours, if I can throw all humility aside) are extremely profitable....
     
  15. JaK

    JaK Junior Member

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  16. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    "As a PDC graduate, apparently I am able to sue anyone whom I consider to be misusing the name Permaculture, eg running substandard courses, giving bad advice."

    Maybe... if you've got a lot of money. And the money doesn't necessarily mean you would win. You can sue anyone, but winning.....? If you're looking for justice (an archaic term), I don't know how it's going in Oz, but here in the U.S., it's long gone.

    BTW, why do so many people believe in only PURE permaculture, and not pure anything else? Is doing half permaculture better than none? How about three-quarters? What if you mix permaculture and bio-dynamics? What if you do pure permaculture in zones 1 & 2, but grow crops in rows by organic methods in the rest of the area? Do you get any points for that?

    How about doing the best you can with what you've got?

    Come on, folks! 95% of the so-called Christians (as one example) can't even stick to 10 simple Commandments they've had for 2000 years or more! America's government can't stick to the 10 basic Bill of Rights! And you expect pure permaculture?!! :oops:

    If you really expect masses of people to turn back to the land by next Tuesday, do it with pure permaculture and immediately start making a profit, I SUSPECT you're doomed to disappointment!

    Why not just get a nice drink and put your feet up and relax for a while? The world will continue to turn for a few more days, the sun will probably shine for at least a couple of weeks, and even though you don't see them, there are people in places all over the world who are looking at permaculture and thinking, "Hmmm.... that sounds like it might work..."
    :D

    You sound kind of stressed... it's probably time to just watch some ants and bees and admire their work ethic.

    Sue
     
  17. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day EmG

    Philosophy:

    The Australian Pocket Oxford Dictionary (1976): The pursuit of wisdom or the knowledge of things and their causes; the study of ultimate realities and general principles; a system of theories on the nature of things or of rules for the conduct of life.

    Collins Pocket Reference English Dictionary (1988): Pursuit of Wisdom; study of realities and general principles; system of theories on nature of things or on conduct.

    And my personal favourite...

    The Budget Macquarie Dictionary - 3rd Edition (1998): The study or science of the truths or principles underlying all knowledge and being (or reality); a system of principles for guidence in practical affairs.

    Cheerio,

    Mark.
     
  18. JaK

    JaK Junior Member

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  19. Forest Fairy

    Forest Fairy Junior Member

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    Hi Bazman,

    I was reading with much interest the posts on "permanence in permaculture". I note your entry regarding Jade Woodhouse. I too, have had the most fortunate experience of attending courses on Jades property. It is truly and inspirational place for anyone wishing to become as self sufficient as possible. As were it's occupants including Karma the dog.
    We all miss Jade's wisdom, knowledge and free spirit. However, the good news is that she sold her property to some previous students who are looking after it just as beautifully as she did. She even comes up now and then to do courses at the property. For that we are eternally grateful.

    If you are thinking of doing a PDC, Crystal Waters is a wonderful classroom. I just read in the latest edition of Earth Garden that Morag Gamble and Evan Raymond are running courses there in Sept this year I think. I saw Morag speak at a function regarding Eco Villages, and she is truly remarkable. Full of energy and life. I just completed a PDC with Max Lindeger at Crystal Waters which was fantastic. Learnt so much and re-ignited my passion.
     
  20. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    Hi Jules

    I was up in the sunshine coast a few weeks back doing a moon planting and soil improvement course with Jade, the lady who brought Jade's property also did the course and I heard all about it then, she is also holding courses from Jade old place. Sounds like Karma is also enjoying the wide open spaces of Jade and Pauls new adventure.

    I'll keep my ear to the ground about PDC's later this year as it might suit my time line.

    Have you done a composting course with Jade? she is combining her worm and composting course into one day now, I have done the compost but not the worm, so I would like to do that one.
     

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