Deep Cycle Batteries - which to choose??

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by Shack Living, Nov 15, 2006.

  1. Shack Living

    Shack Living Junior Member

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    I have:
    * 3 x 80Watt solar panels
    * 1 x Jaycar cheap 200Watt 12V wind generator (only $500, and will be a good indicator if we are suited to wind)

    I have pretty much worked out the system I want to use, except choosing the batteries?? I would like about 1000AH 12 volt all up, so that I can add more solar panels later and use a charger when I am using generator for power tools

    When I research brands and types of deep cycle batteries, I just go in circles. Would like something long lived & reliable!! What to buy??

    I hear fork lift batteries are the best? but who makes them? and are they better than batteries for solar systems?

     
  2. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Backyardpoultry,

    Get in touch with the cleaning contractor at your local supermarket. Supermarkets use big scrubbers powered by up to 800 amps of batteries which are recharged every night. You may be able to get hold of some old batteries to experiment with. Normally when one battery goes the whole set is replaced.

    I did clean a supermarket for 4 years and had one change of batteries. The machine ran 6 x 100 amp 12v batteries and was used daily. I was forever amazed at how long they lasted and the use/abuse they took. My auto electrician performed a couple of callouts for me [broken wires etc] and even he commented that he hadnt seen batteries worked so hard and perform so well. I imagine the electric forklifts would be similar.

    A local contractor should be able to give you clues on where and what to buy. I didnt ever have a battery 'die' on me like car batteries seem to these days.

    floot
     
  3. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    We have the Trojan L-16's, which for stand alone power systems are reputed to be the best for the money. You can get better ones, but they cost a lot more money. Christopher will chime in with lots of wisdom on this subject...
    We just replaced our battery bank last Christmas, which we inherited from a series of prior users, and from what I can gather, they lasted, with much abuse, for about 5 or 6 years. So far, the replacement set has worked well. But we are in that golden era now where the batteries are actually increasing in their storage capacity. Or maybe that is just about to end, and we are entering the slow decline. Not sure... I should go check the electrolyte levels actually, and read the hydrometer. Damn!
    (Sure would be nice if they came up with a better way to store electricity... :lol: )
    Have you set up your wind genny yet?
     
  4. Shack Living

    Shack Living Junior Member

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    Nah, not yet. Its still in its 3 boxes, but seems to come with everythng. Might need to wait for the chrissy holidays, like a lot of my projects. We have been having heaps of wind lately too :lol:

    Trojans seem to have a good name, but 5-10 years doesnt seem a long time?
     
  5. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hi BYP,

    Richard is spot on. For the money, L16s are hard to beat! T105s are also good, but smaller capacity, so more paralell strings, more possibilities to have a weak connection, bad cells, etc. 4 L16s will make one 800 amp hour battery at 12vdc, a bit smaller than 1000. Having that extra string, for an additional 400 watts increases your likelihood of battery failure.

    If you have the money and can find them, nickel iron batteries are the best, but they COST! Their advantages are that they can be cycled to zero without damage, and nothing, short of mechanical destruction, can be done to damage them that cannot be reversed either elecrtically or chemically.

    Good luck!

    C
     
  6. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    We had a thread around here somewhere on the Ni-Cad batteries and where to get 'em didn't we Chris?

    As I recall you could only order them from China, but that may have changed since. Darned if I know why they aren't being promoted more.
     
  7. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Jez,

    I think the thread was about nickel iron batteries, not nickel cadmium. Cadmium is toxic, and nickel cadmium batteries have what is called "memory effect", which means that if they are not totally discharged, cycled down to empty, their capacity becomes limited. Nickel iron batteries do not have that limitation.

    They are very expensive, and hard to get. Why sell a battery that lasts forever when you can have 'em come back and buy more in a few years?

    Wish I could get some nickel iron batteries!

    C
     
  8. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Yeah, sorry Chris, it must have been nickel iron batteries and I'm stumbling over terminology again :lol:

    I just searched the archive here for the specific thread where it was discussed - through two long ones on solar and DC power - but couldn't find it.

    I remember googling it last time we discussed it and finding not a lot for sale (but I did post what I found and I'm 99% sure China was the only one manufacturing them), but just googled it a minute ago and found quite a few...maybe things are changing?
     
  9. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Nickel Iron batteries wouldn't be the only thing that China is the only one to manufacture, eh? Probably half the bits in your computer fit that category, eh!?
    So, Christopher, are you serious when you say that you can't hurt them? They will last indefinitely? Do you have to add water to them as often?
     
  10. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Richard,

    The original nickel iron batteries used in the US pre rural electrification for 36 vdc wind based systems can still be found. They work fine (if not broken). You do need to add water to them, not sure how often. You can eliminate a charge controller. Nickel iron batteries don't need them.

    They are the best batteries for RE. They have a wider voltage swing, higher highs and lower lows, so you need to find an inverter that can take the swings. That is the only limiting factor I can think of.

    I wish they were made by a battery company not in Chia, because having a warranty would make spending that kind of money less heart palpitation inducing.

    C[/i]
     
  11. Shack Living

    Shack Living Junior Member

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    Jez,
    Yeah I read that thread, which sparked my interest on more :D . I wouldn't take the risk of importing Nickel/Iron batteries from china, but wish they would hurry up and improve the technology for batteries. My understanding was that before combustion engines took off, nearly all trucks in the cities were electric (battery) powered. I realise they only went the speed of a horse, but over the past 100 years of research, it seems a poor effort.
     
  12. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    I've tried looking up nickle iron batteries online to no luck.....where should I be looking?
     
  13. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Not spelling 'nickel' right in your search terms would be the problem I reckon Corn. Using Ni-Fe or NiFe can help as well.

    Backyard, I can understand your unwillingness to import them...it's a lot of money. I guess with the Ni-Fe batteries it's not a question of improving the technology, more a case of finding that rare company who isn't into profiteering and making products designed for planned obsolescence.

    I've found a few 2nd hand Ni-Fe batteries for sale in the US (one 32V with an arc welder and a wind generator included), and industrial size ones made by a company called Rauma Oceanics from Finland (edit: it seems Rauma was shut down by the CIA!!!), and I know for a fact that the thousands of underground EV afficionadoes use Ni-Fe batteries in their cars right up to competing in (and winning) drag races etc, so they must be out there - or thousands of people are getting great use from Chinese ones...just a question of hunting hard enough.

    One other lead I have ATM is at this link (Click) - it discusses Ni-Fe batteries and their benefits, then at the bottom of the page there is an email address for sales:

    E-Mail: [email protected]

    I'm going to put some more time into it when I can...it's an important issue...the holy grail is out there somewhere. :D
     
  14. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Backyard.. I run a tip [waste facility] and we get a lot of battries. Most batteries these days are nickel plated. Fisherman now moan that they cant make their own sinkers any more as the nickel content makes the sinkers fragile and prone to shattering.

    I have read on a few occasions where handy souls have got their battery bank from a tip or some such place. I dont know how to check batteries but I would imagine it would be a skill worth learning if you are getting into 12v systems. It has been a long time since I saw such articles, maybe the technology has moved on.

    I did a quick google and didnt locate anything useful, perhaps someone with faster fingers might find a link.

    cheers

    mike
     
  15. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    One way to check batteries Floot, is to use a hydrometer. You squeeze the electrolyte up into the chamber and the float measures the specific gravitiy. If you recharge them and they still test bad they are bad...
    Tell us more about your tip?
     
  16. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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  17. Shack Living

    Shack Living Junior Member

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    I sourced 12 240AH 2V exide flooded batteries for $20 each. They are 4 years old, and from the railway. Seem a good buy so far :? :D
     
  18. dgriffith

    dgriffith Junior Member

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    I've a source in Australia for Chinese made Nickel-Iron cells. I believe that they're the same ones as the BeUtilityFree cells, although it's a bit hard to tell for certain. I've been quoted $285 + delivery from Victoria for 400Ah cells that I'm looking at using for a place I'm building. A 48V system with 400Ah cells works out at approx 17kWh of usable capacity at about $12K. A similar lead-acid system with 30% discharge for long life would need to be about 60kWh of cells or about $20K if you buy some quality gel-cells.

    The big downside is their poor efficiency - whispers on the internet have it at 65-70% compared to lead acid gel cells which can reach 98%. If you've got an excess of power (eg, wind + solar) or are willing to put a few more panels in or run a genset once a week (like I will be), then they're ok. The upside of course is their long, long life and the ability to swap out dud cells if necessary. Also their high tolerance of abuse (over/under charging) makes them handy for places that might be vacant and ticking over for long periods by itself.

    There is very little up-to-date info on NiFe cells - there's a battery FAQ that mentions them that seems to be linked all over the internet, but that's about it. I'm planning on putting in a trimetric battery logger/monitor and will be getting some real-world efficiency and capacity figures. And then I plan to post them everywhere all over the internet, so the next poor sod doesn't have to take such a risk.

    For inverters - the "Sunny Island 5048" inverter handles NiCd cells (which are *reasonably* close to NiFe) and is about $7500, but it's a 5kW inverter-charger that can sync/boost with a genset or grid so you're getting a fair bit of bang for your buck there. It can also handle the removal of up to three lead-acid or NiFe cells if they fail without drama, so it could be a good bit of gear for those that want max life from a battery pack.

    Seeing as my account mysteriously vanished last weekend when I tried to post the contact details for the supplier, I won't bother doing it today. Message me if you want the details.

    I will post the operating specs for the 400Ah cells though -

    Charge rate: Use charge rate 0.2C5 ; The constant charge current will be 80A for a 400Ah cell.

    Recommended charge voltage for 400Ah cells :
    1 Boost Charge: 1.72V - 1.74V charging for 8 Hours maximum;
    2 Float Charge: 1.5V.

    Discharge rate: Recommend discharge the battery under current 200A, max. 200A for 400Ah cell. Max. discharge current of cell will be 2167A. (I presume that's short-circuit current)

    You need to factor in a bit of voltage sag under full load. Probably not a good idea to run 12V systems with NiFe cells - the currents tend to get a bit high for the power output.

    Cheers
    Dave
     
  19. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Interesting info there dgriffith.

    I was just listening to Radio National's Science Show from last weekend, and a fellow was talking about an electricity storage technology called "ultra-capacitors". Anyone know anything about these thingys?
     
  20. MonteGoulding

    MonteGoulding Junior Member

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    Would it be more efficient to use any unused power being generated to pump water up into a header tank then have a mini-hydro generator for when it flows down? The same header tank could be usef for other obvious functions.
     

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