Looking at the Urban Permaculture Landscape Design Course at Zaytuna Farm
One of the biggest opportunities that presents itself in this field is the capacity for the expansion of Permaculture based knowledge into the professional arena. Teaching students how to make the transition between understanding the concepts of Permaculture design and implementing these concepts into the actual world, where proficiency in organisation, planning, communication and resource management are essential, was the central objective of the course.
Over the five days students were engaged into a real life consultancy and construction project at the Arts Factory in Byron Bay — the backpacker’s institution famous for being the place to chill out and relax, gathering travelers together from all around the globe for over 35 years. Byron Bay has several beaches which are popular for surfing and is popular with both domestic and international tourists. It’s a Mecca for backpackers, who travel along the Australian coast, enjoying the wonderful scenery and outdoor activities on offer, such as sky diving, offshore fishing and magical beaches. The area is also noted for its wildlife, with the whale watching industry a significant contributor to the local economy.
Arts Factory Backpackers Lodge, Byron Bay
Thousands of backpackers pass through the Arts Factory each year, so what better spot to establish a food garden and teach prospective Permaculture students how to grow their own food and establish themselves as more conscious and ethical members of our global community. And, like most people traveling on a budget, money must be spent wisely so each guest staying at the factory now has the opportunity to get involved with propagation and maintenance in direct exchange for the fresh, nutrient-dense, chemical-free food flourishing right out of the garden beds. What better way to satisfy the soul of a weary earth explorer?!
Each guest staying at the Arts Factory has been contributing $1 per stay to an eco-fund which helped pay for all the materials and plants for the garden. PRI Staff and students contributed time to learn the art of project management and Permaculture garden installation first hand.
The design for the kitchen garden was created during the last PRI internship and combined a series of raised garden beds, a small intensive fruit forest, herb spiral, food tower and even a lovely little picnic table area where you can hang out and enjoy a cup of hot lemon grass tea cut right from within hand’s reach!
A large part of the design philosophy was for us to start looking more consciously at the way we source our food. By producing more food on site we are able to not only produce more vital and healthy fare, but also dramatically decrease costs of production and supply, eliminating the need for transport and other unnecessary waste of valuable resources.
After visiting the site on the first day to survey the scene, the class looked at what would be the most important information to include in the design portfolio document that is presented to the client. Like all good communication this document is to inform, instruct and guide the client through the creation of the garden and its evolution, providing specific information about each element of the design including climate and zone analysis, water, energy and waste systems, composting and worm farm, plant lists and maintenance. A detailed graphic illustration was then produced to provide the visual picture of the master plan, which provides both the client and the crack team of students with a clear vision of what needs to be achieved.
Back in the classroom, we began focusing more closely on small business planning and management, looking at marketing, networking, determination of costs and the specific process involved in undergoing a Permaculture consultancy.
We really broke down what it means to be a consultant, pulled it apart and looked at things like how to make first contact with the client, what kind of questions to ask in order to obtain the essentials before setting foot on site, assembling quotes for consultations, design elements, garden construction and other necessary considerations.
The question that 95% of the students had was “How do you know what to charge and what things cost?” This is where we spent a lot of time breaking down what will be done during the installation, making profit estimations, time management analysis, specific material identification and allocation of resources. This type of analysis goes for all aspects of the course, with students breaking down each element to determine its true value.
The remaining two and a half days were spent getting our hands dirty — yes, even me.
The first task on-site was to setup an effective work process with the students and put a structure in place. A designer was appointed, who was responsible for taking the design from paper to practice, instructing the project manager on general design elements and layout and making smart choices on the run if the design doesn’t go exactly according to plan. The designer is also responsible for all interaction and communication with the client. The Project Manager (PM) is responsible for overseeing the construction of the garden and scheduling specific work tasks. Whether in Aid work or pAid work, time is money and the budget must be kept in check. The PM is responsible for delegating tasks to the foreperson of each work task and ensuring that tasks are being completed efficiently and to satisfactory standards. The foreperson (FP) is responsible for managing small intensive teams of workers who provide the labour to construct the garden.
With all that said and done I could get on with the some dirty work of laboring for 2.5 days, talking with students and taking a real interest in their life so as to provide specific advice to their ambitions. Whilst it was bloody hard work, the installation is more of a social experiment on how people can work together and get positive outcomes in an organised working environment.
On the last day we had Brisbane Permaculture designer and businessman Tim Auld from allyoucaneatgardens.com.au come along. Tim gave the students an interesting talk on the evolution of his business and what his experiences have been since starting.
Five days passes by quick and we packed a lot in. Students walked away with the necessary tools to start their own business the following Monday, receiving a full colour design presentation and plan of the project completed during the week to use as an example of their experience for future projects. They had hands on experience with the garden installation, compiling quotes for consultations, designs and implementation and a treasure trove of computer files specific to Permaculture business operations, with templates to hit the ground running and be quoting straight away.
Talking & teaching Permaculture business is my passion, touching base with students long after the course has finished to keep the network and support together. We all need that network and support to keep us, even me, focused on our goals and tasks at hand.
If you’re serious about a career in Permaculture business, then signing up for the October 31st 2011 Urban Permaculture Landscape Design Course at the PRI is a must.
We can tip the balance and really make a difference in people’s lives by teaching them how to live within their means and increasing the health of their families by growing their own nutrient-dense, chemical-free food with your professional guidance.
It really pains me to talk with Permaculturalist that tell me they have to go and work for Monsanto during the week to pay for their Permaculture lifestyle. How is that sustainable? Sounds more like a hobby to me, not a lifestyle. I know I keep ranting about this in different articles I have written, but let’s make a choice. There are, give or take, 6,981,372,139 people in the world as I type this. Can we say there is not enough work to go around?
I would really like to see some photographs of the finished product at the Byron backpackers. It sounds like an expensive exercise and the actual sustainability of the project not detailed. Are they now generating all inputs on site for the food production process? How self-sufficient are they? There is no point in paying great loads of cash for something that someone is able to do themselves with minimal inputs of cash and resources.
I have recently visited Australia and went to the the Gold Coast Permaculture urban agriculture demonstration project in Southport. There I saw an amazing effort by few individuals who have utilised local waste streams, diverting them from the tip and creating an extremely productive (commercially) garden project. They are currently in the process of building a community garden the same way. This is the sustainable and regenerative way to go in urban permaculture landscape design.
Sustainability is a word that is much maligned and misused. Regenerative could perhaps replace it as this is what I see permaculture being all about.
That is a strange comment on Monsanto. How many Permies are working for Monsanto? I see the singular was used so do we assume there is only one.
If you want to see how to simply and cheaply grow nutrient dense and chemical-free food, check out the Gold Coast Permaculture demonstration site. I was very impressed.
Sergi
What a niche and well-honed course. You’ve got me seriously curious about the next one in October. Thanks!
Erin~
Hi Sergi
yes it is all perfectionist permaculture certified, 110% even a wild bush turkey protein surplus.
G’day, I worked with Nick on a number of occasions now and he is just great at the business of permaculture. Honestly if you take this course it will be worth it, all the in’s and out’s of running your own business from advertising, consulting, quotes, managing the job and getting paid.
Hi Geoff and Dave,
‘Perfectionist permaculture certified’ sounds real strange. I thought bush turkeys were protected in Australia. I am real happy to hear Nick is great at the business of permaculture though am not quite sure what that means but it sure sounds like a plug for Nick. I think those guys on the Gold Coast there have it under control from what they showed me. They are really worth dropping in on if you are looking at urban permaculture design. Their design has made allowances for the establishment of micro-businesses and there is a Sunday market stall just going great guns man. These guys are really getting into the community side of it as well and working with the marginalized including mental health people. It really is about earth care, people care and return the surplus and at the same time, running their own business and getting paid. This has all come out of their design for the garden and the organization.
Nick, it looks like an awesome course, and a good hands-on project to boot. We definitely need these types of courses. Geoff’s comment is hilarious! The only constructive feedback I have is the slogan at the end of the video clip, “it’s easy being green”, is pretty weak. I think that undersells and dumbs down the work you are doing.
Phenomenal course idea!
Whew, ‘Sergi’, you truly have a ‘them and us’, ‘divide and conquer’ attitude. What’s with that?
In regards to the ‘plug’ for Nick – hell, why not? I applaud anyone who is trying to help other permies have the confidence to start their own permaculture business, so we can build the much-needed new economy.
Thanks all for the Comments.
Geoff – Classic!
Sergi, Let be known to the world that I was the first President, and my partner the first Secretary of Permaculture Gold Coast. Right from the start the aim of the group was to set up small business models so that members could seek gain full employment as a permaculturalist within the Community and get pAID for it. Since that time I have moved away to a beautiful property in the NSW southern tablelands, and the group continues to go from strength to strength. And full credit for all involved.
Incase you couldn’t work it out Sergi, THIS IS A PLUG FOR MY COURSE, Its called an advertorial and I’m wanting Active Permaculture folk to come and get involved in the business of Permaculture.
Sergi, I’m sure if you got on your bike and went down to Byron and got in touch with Angie Wilton Administration Assistant from the The Arts Factory Lodge. Here is her detail P. +61 2 6685 5390
E. angie@artsfactory.com.au I’m absolutely sure she would be happy to give you all the information on the site and productivity of food grown and how it is integrated within the Business structure of the site.
Jason, Probably right with that one, I employed one of the students from the last course Adrian Baiada to put it together. By all accounts, I’m really happy with it. Its not a Hollywood Production but it gets the message across and Adrian get pAID for his work and a Permaculture Professional.
Erin, If your serious about this Course, then the investment for the course fees can be claimed as a business expense for education and business development, including all travel and expenses.
That is interesting. The guys on the Gold Coast actually told me that they had only incorporated the organization this year and the secretary is a cool gal called Lyn.
My original query probably more related to the sustainability and costing on the Byron inputs and the actual economics of the whole thing. I would have thought that Nick would be happy to provide that sort of information in round figures without breaching any commercial-in-confidence matters. Establishing the pay back period on these projects is pretty important I would have thought as there is little point in spending masses of cash for questionable returns unless you have far too much money and unfortunately, I don’t come into that category. Also, are they generating the inputs for the project on-site or getting into an external waste stream?
Sorry Craig, don’t mean to divide and conquer but I would like to know what is being done down there. I have seen a post of Nick’s on a project that he himself said was neither economical and from the energy inputs required to play in dirt, was far from sustainable let alone regenerative. I am probably a little concerned that often the dictates of business gets in the way of regenerative design and operations.
It is apparent that Nick did not perceive that I was referring to Dave’s comment, not to his advertorial which is not really ‘torial’ but more advert. While it promotes the course, it does not give the information on Byron but rather skims over it in a normal advertising exercise of ‘playing the reader’ as opposed to relying on evidence to support the contentions.
Sergi
Hi Sergi,
People are often unable to do it themselves in a reasonable time frame. You can’t just snap your fingers and be a great designer and builder of productive systems. Some don’t have the surplus time but have surplus money. Some aren’t physically able or it doesn’t make sense for them to own or hire all the tools they need. They do have a willingness to maintain their gardens and learn from it.
I support people who beat their own path and I love what Justin and company are doing with Permaculture Gold Coast. They love what I’m doing. We have to use all opportunities and a diversity of strategies.
My clients are recouping the money they used to hire me with the fresh, organic, zero distance food from their gardens. What’s not to like?
Hello Tim
Be that as it may, I just wonder why Nick finds it necessary to say he was the first President of Gold Coast Permaculture (I am told it was and still is Leah) and his wife secretary (it is Lyn). What other rather dubious claims has he made/is he making?
I have heard of you from the Gold Coast and you are well regarded. I really am just asking as to the economics of the Byron Bay job that has been mentioned above. This is a subject that seems to be assiduously avoided. We here in the US have heard much about this course and its teacher but the ratings are dubious.
G’day Sergi, I am a great supporter and friend of the gold coast crew and think what they’re doing is bloody great.
Justin asked me to move up there 3 months ago and be part of the great work they are doing but I chose to stay in my home town which is pretty red-neck timber town and influence some change here, which is slow but happening with a new school garden to be set up soon and our own community garden. Shortly I hope to screen FOOD.INC as a vehicle for change and education.
But as for selling Nick’s course, I myself lack the business skills which Nick possesses and for anyone wanting to start their own business the course would help greatly.
I did a crash course with Nick a few months ago and it help me understand the process involved in the business end of permaculture.
I agree with the beyond sustainable and looking at a regenerative approach, understanding scales of economy.
Starting successful permaculture groups that become highly active and dynamic are my proudest achievements and a great emphasis on my PDC’s, many of my students start groups worldwide. A group nearly always has to actually be started and initiated into action before incorporation, Somebody has to be the fire lighter that same person does not necessarily have to be the fire stoker.
The Urban Landscape Design Course offers a real experience to students and service to the local community that is interested in permaculture by offering free consultancy and implementation, with the client supplying their materials of choice, taking our advice into consideration.
We are happy to be educating people into action, the students are happy and grateful and the clients a happy and grateful, everyone wins, the local community gets more permaculture.
Great new style of course and will work anywhere.
Great comment on the groups Geoff. You are right there and from my observation in the short time I had there Justin on the Gold Coast has done a wonderful job of both the initiation and the action. The guy appears to be an absolute dynamo. I don’t think he did one of your courses though but your course emphasis sounds spot on.
On your comment Dave, it may be more economical for people to do a basic business course at a vocational institution to get those skills
Good on you Nick, as a fellow installer of urban permaculture systems I come across people who question the new materials, money spending/ food production equation, such as what I think Sergi might be trying to get at.
There are people in the money/corporate/ first world, who are interested in food production and it is up to all of us as talented niche finders to insert permaculture everywhere we can.
This sometimes means doing work that is a bit infrastructure heavy, simply because that is the “look” the job requires. New materials are often part of the job brief, and jobs often have lots of “intangables” you can work with, such as buying those new materials locally.
Also, the potential to influence “mainstreamers” over into that fascinating hobby of home grown food is worth it.
To flip the inputs/output equation over, I have found that new, expensive, infrastructure heavy installations grow just as much food, interest, productivity, social interaction and joy as the infrastructure “free” ones do.
There are people out there with the money and the interest who are prepared to spend, and why not have a permaculture designer spend the money and design the system?
I was kind of wondering, having been away for a while, as to the actual requirement for a course in urban permaculture design and an ability to cost if as Geoff says, the course is about offering free consultancy to the community (a laudable concept in this dog eat dog world) and the client provides their own materials. Anyone with a basic PDC should be able to get in and design a garden. After-all, they are qualified PDC designers and teachers after leaving the PRI. A permablitz would probably be just as effective is providing that service to the community.
If educating people into action, the students being happy and grateful and the clients also happy and grateful and I imagine they are with free consultancy, everyone does win and yes, the local community gets more permaculture. Share the surplus is a great way to operate. Well done Nick.
yea sergi I agree, but at the same time its like doing a PDC at a distance, you dont get emerged in the culture and exchange of ideas as a group and the whole dynamics, thats all
Carolyn, Im doing a job at the monment for a lady in a wheel chair that is invloving new materials, so a lot of paving, block work/besa brick and coragated iron/tin raised beds Im not sure how eles to do it, also have to tye into exciting theme as the look is important to the client
Geoff you serously have me thinking about forming a permaculture group in this little timber town where not much if any is know about permaculture, hence why I’ve gone down the road of eductional movies such as food.inc
Hi Sergi
where EXACTLY in the US are you? We can help you get into action with our many connections, even google earth as a design tool can really help get you located and directed to really good action on the ground,
Justin spent a lot of time with us at Zaytuna Farm the Australian home of the PRI getting well trained mostly in a work trade arrangement so he should be good and his wife Vanessa took a PDC and one of our early internships, and behind every good man there is nearly always a great woman, and I do speak from my own experience.
Hi Dave
It sounds like a really expensive way to exchange ideas. From my experience too many PDCs and other such courses attempt to generate ideology as opposed to permaculture by focusing too much on how bad everything is and how permaculture is the answer to all our problems. People go away from these courses totally fired up on stupidity and find that in the real world, it just is not the case. It is one of the answers but is only a small part of the maze that is needed to be negotiated in order to resolve the problems that face the planet today.
It is good to hear that Nick is giving away free consultancies but this does not appear to be the object of the course.
Hey Geoff, in my past conversations with Justin of which there were many in my time in Australia, I understood you actually worked withhim at Tagari well before he donated his time at Zaytuna so it seems he had a pretty good idea of things. He advised me that he never did any training from the PRI. He told me that he actually provided you with masses of your cassava plantings. What are you doing with them as I have never heard them mentioned in PRI articles? They are a great food source. That guy has a mass of knowledge in his head about plants and practical permaculture.
I am on the east coast most of the time (in the UK right now) and have great connections all doing great community and permaculture work on the ground. I have adopted the Gold Coast Permaculture model which is really practical and down to earth in its approach. Thanks for the offer anyway but permaculture here in the US is pretty well developed and has been doing great stuff for many years before you began the PRI it think. I am not too enraptured with the PRI model as it seems to be more aligned with the financial side as opposed to the community side of things. While business is necessary, I do not see it as being the priority. It leads to exploitation of people as the underlying principles of the process are exploitative. Also, we seldom see any stories on the Zaytuna farm model. I love some of the Australian sites where they give us some just excellent stories on what is happening. Milkwood is one and I really wish I could have gone there when I was out. They seem to be really trucking along with their garden stuff.
I was just reading all this (wow it is such a big lot of posting here) and have a similar query to that of Sergi. I fully support the provision of free consultancy and construction based on the client’s choice of materials. But, if “the client supplying their materials of choice, taking our advice into consideration” is the case, how does the course get to do a business model on the client – Otherwise, it seems a bit of a waste of time as this seems to be the object of the course. Do the students do a costing on the whole job or not? If so, it would be great to know how much it did actually cost.
I am not so sure about the ethics of your comment on the spending of client’s money Carolyn. Just because they have it, it is really not up to the designer to go overboard. Just the opposite if possible. As you say, you can often do it much more cheaply which is the best way as well. The 5 r’s are what we should be looking at to run a close the loop approach to design. They are ‘reduce, reuse, recycle, rethink and redesign’. This also really entails the generation of on-site inputs to the greatest degree possible.
All our students acting on our advice, Gold Coast, Milkwood and many more in Australia and globally setting up both institutes and local permaculture groups running in parallel and supporting each other.
That is what we do when we train these people then provide them with services like the Worldwide Permaculture Network and this web site which you seems relish in using as a platform to be negative towards PRI and that very service. It is all a bit weird really mate, think about it why don’t you?
If you do not like what we do, please stop using our web site – you are not doing yourself any favors.
Back on ethics, I am just gobsmacked by this comment “and behind every good man there is nearly always a great woman, and I do speak from my own experience”.
In permaculture, women are in the lead Geoff and have been for a long time. They are not sitting behind some misogynist male waiting to be asked a question or waiting for permission to contribute. At the very least, women in our society are walking in step with not behind any male. You might keep them behind you but I can assure you that this one insists on equality and so do, I understand, Australian females.
Hello All.
It’s great to be inspired by each others models and success,and also to have the opportunity to learn from models which don’t work.A business model is like a design, site specific.It would be great if we could pass on perfect frameworks on which we could scaffold perfect models.We have a few big holes in our model and our invisible structures and people care,earth care and fair share could always be improved.Maybe in the fullness of time we will achieve something that is resilient and self perpetuating.Until then it is probably best (Sergie) to hold the applause.
I appreciate that you and your group enjoyed what we are attempting on the Gold Coast however our inspiration comes from a wide range of sources and most of the ideas we use are borrowed from models we feel are successful.Some of them commercial some of them not for profit.
Milkwood,Purple Pear Organics,Elizabeth Fekonia,Fernando Pessoa,The Northey Street Crew,The Yandina community garden,The VEG guys Dan and Adam in Melbourne,Robert “sink” Grey,Dave Spicer,Tashi Dawa,Leonie Shanahan, Re- Gen AG Robyn Francis RO Morrow!!!!!! have all inspired us and we borrow from their ideas heavily.There are dozens and dozens more more,on recent trips to South America we saw some amazing projects from Lucy Legan and Andre Soares in Brazil is truly World Class.
Daniel Sherriden,John Palmer(OAM) , Lyn Mansfield,Rebecca Stoneman, Vanessa Fernandes,Leah Galvin and I started GCPC in 2006-7.
This was in response to our involvement with a number of school and community gardens we were working with at the time.
Lyn Mansfield especially has been a key driver in our organisation her 25 years with non-profits experience she came with a skill set that none of us had learned in any of the courses we have taken.Vanessa has an MBA so that is handy,Rebecca was a highly motivated university student and Dan is one of the best “plant guys”I have met.
John Palmer who attended Bills first course ever is extremely important to us as are some of our other elders like Jude Lai who continue to educate us on the natural enviroment.I think we are all pleased to have passed through PRI and to have had the opportunity to meet so many wonderful people who inspired us all.
I think Nick might be getting an unfair serve from you Sergie he is a committed business person,who is skilled in his profession.His model is addressing a need,I attended a conference some years back when Lend lease and Mirvac announced their sustainability drive.They said sustainable buildings are profitable,”we can make a profit and do a good thing at the same time” then lets do it.
As long as a model has the ethics as it’s core and those ethics are upheld then I don’t see it as a bad thing.Nick when I met him was doing his PDC at PRI in the 2 years since then he has tirelessly worked to bring the business model to fruition,he has also spent a considerable amount of money on internships travel and good work within the community I think he deserves credit for this.He is trying to develop a skill set that isn’t taught in PDC so it’s another spring board into a sustainable career.
My time at PRI was spent in the Kitchen mostly,that kitchen is a tough mistress!!The most important thing I got from PRI was the chance to be inspired and connections that I made with groups of diverse people and friendships that turn into networks.Craig you are especially inspiring and motivated and Geoff puts in the hard yards and has done for years.I think the fact is if you look at any model or any person you are going to find faults.If you see the effort is genuine and ethical then it should be backed.500,000 dollars per year from permaculture might seem obscene to some and it is ,unless that money is used for fair share.
I am still without my PDC or any formal education so I can not comment on their value.Many young people I meet now are doing certificates and diplomas through tafe under the APT stream and are finding themselves with support from Austudy and long term employment prospects in a wide range of fields.When this first started it was considered by “purists”to be a bit of a high jacking of permaculture.Things change and evolve and now we have hundreds of benchmarked qualified young permies active and making a difference.
I like what Stevie Wonder has to say in “Master Blaster”
When you move in the positive your destination is the brightest star”.
Best wishes
Justin Sharman-Selvidge
38 Freda Street
Ashmore 4214
55393973
Sergi. I’m not letting your latest comment through, or any further with your line of commenting. At the moment I’m in Jordan, so don’t have time to do it now, but when I get a moment I’ll do what I should have done a while ago, but truly had more confidence in the permaculture community and thought I could get away with not doing it – that being to create a page where you’ll see the dos and don’ts of commenting on this site. It should be obvious without having to do so, but it looks like I’ll have to spell it out….
Essentially, you’re making innuendos, and unsubstantiated accusations. If you have a problem with someone or something, you should contact the people concerned directly. Additionally, in the six or seven comments you’ve made on this site, despite your saying you’re currently in the UK, your IP address has popped up in about five different places in a few different countries. If you’re going to hide behind a proxy IP, you’re not only hiding in the shadows whilst slinging mud, you’re standing in a hall of mirrors. I can’t take such a person seriously, and I certainly cannot have any respect for such behavior.
I’m thrilled about the work of the Gold Coast group. Geoff and I have spent time and money on helping advertise their work (courses, workshops, permablitzs, their very existence, etc.). We do this for permaculture groups everywhere. It takes time, and (unfortunately) in today’s world, time is money – if you’re wondering where our finances go, please consider this. You’re attacking us for trying to raise the profile of permaculture in the world, and trying to help permies network and leverage each other’s efforts. We’re promoting and supporting projects in some of the world’s most needy places. Where many permaculture projects are insular, we’re trying to encourage all projects to include the fair share aspect and to give back to communities worldwide. As well as direct help, the WPN (www.permacultureglobal.com) is an outflow of this also. It’s not a cheap thing to create, and we don’t expect we’ll ever get the money returned from its creation, as there’s (intentionally) virtually no financial model built into it, but that’s because money was not the point – the point is to help people (mainstream people) to see more permaculture projects, and be inspired by them, and inspired to take up the call. And the point is to help permies to find people in their own region and/or their own climate all over the world, and to *share* (knowledge, resources, seeds!, etc.). And yet you try to kick us in the teeth for that.
Stop thinking competition, and think nurturing. If you genuinely think we’re failing somewhere, contact us directly, and spell it out in concrete terms we can understand.
I can’t let such a vague but negative conversation continue. For all I know Nick and/or Geoff accidentally tipped your little sister over on her tricycle, and you’re trying to get revenge. The reasons behind your innuendos are unknown to us. Unless you come out of the shadows and deal directly with people, the most you can now hope to do is to create another fictitious persona and hit us again from another angle until I get sick of you again.
Please, do something constructive. The world is way behind schedule for a permaculture makeover, and your comments are only further obstacles to the same. We’re doing the best we can for the most people we can. I know we’re not perfect (I’ve never met a perfect person or organisation in my reasonably-well-experienced life), but how does attacking us help??
Bye Sergi.
P.S. Thanks for your comment Justin, and all the best in your continued efforts. As far as I’m concerned, it’s our responsibility to help groups like yours, and we’ll continue to do so as far and as long as we’re able.
Hi Joni
that classic and famous saying I used “behind every good man there is nearly always a great woman” could read “behind every good woman there is nearly always a great man” some great woman prefer to support good men and obviously some great men prefer to support good women.
Don’t get caught up in the words we all do what we can do, we are who we are and as the moto of the permaculture academy reads “The field lies open to the intellect”.
I hope you find an understanding in this.
Sorry everyone, I will just have to jump back a few comments and defend myself with regard to Joni’s comment on my ethics of spending a clients money. Joni,I think you may have skewed my meaning and put it in to your own words, for your own reasons.
I never said anything about going overboard.
I have done an installation for an all abilities access community garden, the money was through a federal government grant, any conventional landscaper could have done the job and blown through all the money without any ethics at all.
The job was infrastructure heavy, in that it needed sleepers and soil. I can reassure you and everyone else, that at every turn I spent every cent with the greatest of care. Buying things locally, checking out where things came from, right down to bringing food from my own garden to feed the workers for lunch,as opposed to buying lunch for them from the multi chain supermarket, and of course I got to stimulate permaculture conversation within a whole new set of people. The only site inputs that existed was the grass, which we mulched over.
There was a set amount of money for this job and they got exeptional value for that money.
Honestly, the money that went on my wage was very important too, money very well spent, it helped me continue to live my frugal existance, where I spend my time every day in my community, doing everything I can do to bring about transition into an abundant future.
The main thing really is transition, out there in the real world all i can do is just baby steps and harm minimisation. Joni, if you think I dont live ethically, or think I don’t know what the 5 R’s are, come and visit me, work with me and live my life with me. Otherwise, you need to get to work where you are, doing the most you can.
Ironically too, with regards to your offence at Geoff’s comments about great men and women, I think you were being culturally insensitive.
Personally, I sure wish I had a great man or good man, behind me or in front of me.
Yours Abundantly, Carolyn Payne
Gee Craig, that is a bit drastic. Like, I am in France right now which is a hop across the channel. Looking at the posts, it seems that the initial President and Secretary of Gold Coast Permaculture were not as originally claimed by Nick. That has a few ethical dimensions as well I would think. What are the figures on the Byron project that is highlighted in the video?
Not getting “caught up in the words” is difficult when people say and write stuff especially on this site. This ‘great man’/’great woman’ stuff is a bit off as well. Where is the acknowledgement of independence of thought and action that has been shown by many women who did not need men behind them? There are a lot in permaculture. Look at Rosemary Morrow, a legend in aid work and permaculture. There is not a man that can stand beside her and certainly I do not think she would claim she needed one to do what she has and is done. She is an inspiration to us all. Also, Robyn Francis, Linda Woodrow, the ladies who wrote ‘Teaching Permaculture Creatively’ – these are all inspiring, independent and powerful women. There are few men it seems.
Joni, You’re using a confirmed proxy server that’s in France, that’s the only thing I can be sure of, but whether you’re in France or not is a whole other question. Your IP address is also hopping about the world like Sergi. Perhaps you’re both one and the same.
It’s pretty clear to me that it’s not about getting answers for you, but about finding fault, no matter what. Your and Sergi’s tone is clearly one of hoping to find fault. This is made clear from your taking Geoff’s quoting a very well known and totally harmless saying and turning it into some kind of sexist remark, which is obviously wasn’t meant to be (at least obvious to anyone else except you). Geoff was not denigrating anyone and you know it.
Sorry, but I have better things to do with my time than to continue playing games with you.
Dear Critical-Permie-Cyber-Geeks (if the hat fits wear it)
Thank you for providing people like me endless entertainment at this handy address. I never enjoyed soapies and I tend to not bother with family feuds, but a timely visit to this forum can provide me with more value than any of those.
Now let me take my tongue out of my cheek and just say this:
Stop using this site as a means to take out your frustrations with life on people who are doing their level best to expose the world to productive ideas. Have some respect for yourself and them. No one is perfect and even as I write this jibe I think to myself, what the heck am I doing behind a computer when the real solutions (for us personally and hence for our world) lie out there in the simplest of positive actions.
Stop critising others and rather ask what you can DO.
Thank you to all those behind the PRI in Aus (and the women and men behind, above, below and to the side of them) for helping me experience this for myself :)
Here’s to this forum getting back to what it used to be a while back.
Hey guys!
im not often on the web, as a great woman is running theses aspects of our permaculture/regenerative/agro-ecology (or whatever you want to call it)professional life.
I dont understand these attacks on PRI, as they been so helpful to us and the work we doing in greece (free website, networking and so much more…)
I dont really understand, and to be honest i havent read it all, attacks on Nick jobs, i attented this course it was great, cost of materials were very low, and the ratio input/output bloody good.
We PRI Greece, are doing consultancy at wealthy people homes and lands, thats how we intend to make a living, as we leaving in the real world, we also teach at cost (literaly) people how to grow free food, in a crisis country, where commodity are amongst the most expenssive in europe and minimum wage amongst the lowest…
so ill make it short and will just say, get real! no time to waste, and im off digging a swale before the rain
thank you again to Geoff, Craig, Nick and all PRI people!